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Old 01-23-2010, 05:48 PM   #1
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Hello All,

I've introduced myself on the Official "Introduce Yourself" Thread, but I'm creating another post to express my newbie issues here (as this seems to be the protocol on this forum).

I've been a smoker for 8 years. For the last couple of years I've been smoking around a half-pack of ultra lights per day. I found out about e-cigarettes, and decided to give it a shot. I picked up the NJOY NPRO (RN-4081) starter pack yesterday.

I've spent several hours looking through this forum and familiarizing myself with its contents, but I still have some unanswered questions about vaping. So my apologies in advance if these questions have already been addressed in other posts:
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1. In my first day of vaping, I developed a severely swollen throat. The lymph glands in my neck became really swollen, my throat tightened up and ached severely, and it became difficult to swallow. These are normally the symptoms of me getting really sick, as in mononucleosis. Extremely uncomfortable and distressing. Here I am almost 24 hours since I last used my NPRO and my throat is STILL constricted. I read somewhere on this forum that some users may have an allergic reaction to the propylene glycol used as the base of the cartridge fluid. Has anyone else experienced these side-effects? If so, is this the result of an allergic reaction to PG? Would I eliminate these side-effects if I vaped using Vegetable Glycerin? Am I vaping my NPRO in an incorrect manner, and simply changing my vaping methods will remove or reduce the throat constriction? Or is this side-effect something that one's throat simply becomes accustomed to and reduces overtime as you get used to the practice of vaping?
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2. In my first day of vaping, I used a "Light" traditional flavored cartridge that came in the starter pack. I've got to say, it tasted TERRIBLE. The aftertaste was of some sort of toxic plastic lingering in my mouth. Not in the slightest way pleasant. I read somewhere in this forum that this could be the result of using a new atomizer (clearly I was using a new atomizer), since atomizers have a chemical coating of sorts which burns off after a few uses, thereby eliminating the nasty "plastic" taste. Is this the case with the NPRO? I haven't used it very heavily in the first day, but the nasty taste does not seem to go away at all.
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3. I understand that you can purchase new cartridges (or juices) in different nicotine concentrations roughly equivalent to a full-flavor cigarette, lights, ultra-lights, and zero-nicotine. Based on your experiences with vaping, would I be better off using an "ultra-light" cartridge or juice, since I have been smoking ultra-light analogs almost exclusively for several years? I guess my real question is this - how close to analogs are the vaping equivalents? Is an ultra-light cartridge really like an ultra-light analog, or are they weaker than the analog?

Well, unless I can get some relief from my severely constricted throat and that terrible plastic taste, I don't see much of a future in vaping for me. Thanks in advance for any feedback you kind folks can provide.
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:08 PM   #2
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Can't address all of your concerns (unless I get to ranting and can't stop )
I don't like pre-filled cartridges. My experience has been the juice tastes old, at best.
"Plastic Tasting" sounds like "plastic". You know, if it walks like a duck. THe filler in the cartridge is plastic. If you vape a cart faster than the juice can wick in to keep the atomizer heater "wet" then the filler starts to break down. This material in the vapor will give you one heck of a sore throat. If you don't have extra juice to add and "top off" the atty can easily get dry. Over vaping, until you get used to it can irritate your throat also.

Now to the PG. Most people experience a slight PG irritation at first. Severe reaction to PG should have shown up prior to vaping because this stuff is used in a lot of products. Are you sensitive to hand lotions, cough syrups, check the things you normally use for PG. But it is possible. If there is a chance-stop for now.

Vegetable Glycerin (must be vegetable) can be obtained at some cake decorating supplies stores, hobby stores, sometimes Walmart. You can try vaping a little of this unflavored, maybe thinned a little with distilled water, or booze. about 10 to 1 (mostly VG). won't taste like nothing but will let you test the reaction to vaping without PG and keep the atty "wet".

The high, medium, light label some sellers apply to juice varies but start with medium and go up of down from there.

So, The Rocket suggests: stop the PG, in possibly old cartridges.
Buy a little VG juice (or the pure VG). Try it slow at first.

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Old 01-23-2010, 06:37 PM   #3
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Health food stores have VG.. Sounds like your one that can't use PG.. But one thing--- VG can cause some cancers.. PG dose not..
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:40 PM   #4
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Yeah! What he said.

And this: I thought I found a REAL GOOD cart material, a foam that came packed around a Gateway LCD panel. Soaked up a LOT of juice and released it rapidly; massive clouds of vapor, good taste, etc. After about 3 hours I started to feel a stricture in my throat...I replaced it with a regular cart and it went away around mid day the next day. Never tried anything else again except for Fluval filter material, and have not had the same problem.

There are people who have reactions to PG. If you use mouthwash, take a look at it. If you can't use mouthwash for the same reason, you might have your answer. A lot of moutwashes, esp the non-alcohol type are PG based.

You also have to remember this is concentrated STEAM. There's a reason it's called a Personal Vaporizer!. If you have problems with a traditional vaporizer, you're most likely going to have problems with this.

It might also be the coating or 'breking in' of a new atomizer. You might be allergic to whatever the mesh is made of!

You bring up a concern I have had right from the start: what is IN these things, and is there something that might actually be worse than tobacco?

Remember where these are made...lead paint in toys...
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:42 PM   #5
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Health food stores have VG.. Sounds like your one that can't use PG.. But one thing--- VG can cause some cancers.. PG dose not..
Wow. I thought I read it the other way around!!!

I've been using VG to avoid anti-freeze grade PG! Anti-freeze grade PG can emit DEG, a toxin!
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:42 PM   #6
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and one other thing.. Buy USA juice.. Some china juices have some other kinds of additives. US brands are pure.. There is no guide lines in china and they cut corners were they should'nt..
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:49 PM   #7
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Health food stores have VG.. Sounds like your one that can't use PG.. But one thing--- VG can cause some cancers.. PG dose not..
I hadn't heard that. What kind of cancers or can you point me to where you read about that? I was just going to try switching to VG, glad I read your response.
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:49 PM   #8
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I dip my Juice Newtons in BeeGee Juice. Not known to cause cancer in California Mice or Microsoft mice either.
Not as fattening as Fig newtons, and not near as gross as Wayne Newtons.

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Old 01-23-2010, 06:59 PM   #9
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Yes it was ecigs jane that did all the research. I think its lung.. Not sure.. It produceses certin carciniges. Please don't mind my spelling.. I am really tired.. But it has been proven.. I don't know how long you have to vap it but Y take the chance.. I have used it in the past with no problems .. nok on wood..lol.. I dose produce lots more bigger clouds..
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:32 PM   #10
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Yes it was ecigs jane that did all the research. I think its lung.. Not sure.. It produceses certin carciniges. Please don't mind my spelling.. I am really tired.. But it has been proven.. I don't know how long you have to vap it but Y take the chance.. I have used it in the past with no problems .. nok on wood..lol.. I dose produce lots more bigger clouds..
Wow... okay, um... VG is only toxic when you introduce the liquid to your body while it contains diethylene glycol, which causes an array of very serious medical illnesses (although none of which are cancer of any kind). Propylene glycol has pretty much the same story all on its own. By itself, in massive quantities, it is toxic; yet, PG is also noncarcinogenic. I'm not sure where you have your information from, but it is (for lack of a better word) bunk.

Sources:
Glycerol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Propylene glycol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


(yeah it's wikipedia... big whoop wanna fight about it!?)
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:45 PM   #11
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(yeah it's wikipedia... big whoop wanna fight about it!?)
Is there gonna be a fight!!!!!!!
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Old 01-23-2010, 09:41 PM   #12
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Who dat say they're gonna beat them Saints?

Whatever the deal is with vaping liquids, MY VIEW is don't get the stuff really hot. Vg or PG, or the other stuff put in there.
Keep the atty heater wet, drip, drop, dump, just keep the heater temperature down. Juice components, plastic filler material, dried crud on the heater, could make new chemicals. Maybe not as many as a cigarette fire, but chemistry happens faster with heat. An e-cig atty can get hot enough to melt the little heater wire, that is a lot hotter than you want. Even the GC cartomizer can get much hotter than you want. Any thermodynamic experts out there? Do you think an atty gets hotter running on 6 volts than it does on 4? I don't like hot. If you are having troubles at 4 volts, don't even think of going to 6 volts.

You can't taste or smell some things that are bad for you , but if it smells or tastes like an old dead fluval, do something. If you think a batch of juice is tainted, contact your supplier. They might not want to here about it, but if it really is bad they stand to lose a lot more if they ignore the issue. We would like to know also. Now, you can spoil your own juice by leaving it out in the hot car (some of us live where it still gets warm). Take care of your excess stash.

I don't use juice, attys, cartridges that tastes like a pot that has boiled dry, like a filter cigarette lit backdarnassferds, or like you just lit your ball point pen.

Practice deep breathing exercises. The lungs can start healing now that the smoke and tar have stopped. Medical rumors have it that they can regain a large portion of their function just by stopping burning tobacco.

Keep this better than tobacco. Don't push the technology or the chemistry to the limit. VapeSafe, spit don't swallow.

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Old 01-23-2010, 10:06 PM   #13
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I have reviewed a 50 page report on PG. Food grade. Not comer.... As to who is starting crap just grow up..
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Old 01-23-2010, 10:23 PM   #14
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The other thing I said was that some over seas juice makers do use other additives.. and it has been proven.. US juice makers have to go by gov. guide lines. Just ask JK or Parker at diet smokes.. I have bought from some china sites and had to throw it out. Just tasted bad.. Eastmall has good juice.. You can ask david and he will give you the break down of what is in his juice.. Just search and ask .
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Old 01-23-2010, 10:32 PM   #15
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I used to use an Njoy Npro-- & after about the 5th drag it was all about vaping polyfill, think the carts hold about 8 drops of juice... very easy to hit that taste like chemical/plastic threshold. Hope the throat gets better.
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Old 01-24-2010, 12:52 AM   #16
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Thanks everybody for the feedback. I wasn't expecting such an overwhelming response!

So basically what I'm hearing is:
Try VG, see how it affects my throat.
Avoid using pre-filled carts, and just drip my own.
Buy only US-made cart juices.
Use Fluval material to drip my own carts.

Also, I have not had a reaction to other products containing PG. Non-alcoholic mouthwashes, hand lotions, cough syrup - none of these things. Hmmm.
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Old 01-24-2010, 06:02 AM   #17
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Sounds like a plan to me
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Old 01-24-2010, 11:07 AM   #18
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This was dated July 23, 2009

The FDA has issued a health warning about the potential dangers of electronic cigarettes, commonly referred to as E-Cigarettes, which are growing in popularity, claiming to be safer than normal cigarettes, and which seem to be marketed primarily towards young people.

E-Cigarettes are battery-powered devices, usually shaped like a pen, cigarette or cigar, which heat up a flavored nicotine solution when the user inhales. The resulting vapors are inhaled in the same manner as smoking a cigarette.

The FDA released a warning on Wednesday that laboratory analysis of some E-cigarettes revealed that they contain carcinogens and toxic chemicals. One of the detected chemicals, diethylene glycol, is an ingredient used in anti-freeze. The tests also found nitrosamines, some of which are known to cause cancer and also are present in normal cigarettes.


I read the test as presented by the FDA, and the only e cig emitting DEG was a Smoking Everywhere model.

Here's another article:


Fatalities Associated with Ingestion of Diethylene Glycol-Contaminated Glycerin Used to Manufacture Acetaminophen Syrup -- Haiti, November 1995-June 1996

From November 1995 through June 1996, acute anuric renal failure was diagnosed in 86 children (aged 3 months-13 years) in Haiti; most (85%) children were aged less than or equal to 5 years. On June 14, 1996, a joint investigation was initiated by the Ministry of Health of Haiti, the University General Hospital in Port-au-Prince, the Pan American Health Organization/World Health Organization, the Caribbean Epidemiology Center, and CDC. This report summarizes the preliminary findings of this ongoing investigation, which indicate that this outbreak was associated with diethylene glycol (DEG)-contaminated glycerin used to manufacture acetaminophen syrup.

Most cases were characterized by a nonspecific febrile prodromal illness followed within 2 weeks by anuric renal failure, pancreatitis, hepatitis, and neurologic dysfunction progressing to coma. Ten children were transferred to medical centers in the United States for intensive care and dialysis; nine are still living. Of the 76 children who remained in Haiti, only one is known to have survived. Histopathology of kidney tissue from four patients indicated acute tubular necrosis with regeneration consistent with a toxic exposure.

The investigation indicated that at least 79% of patients had consumed one of two locally manufactured acetaminophen syrup preparations ("Afebril" and "Valodon"), which were subsequently found to contain DEG. On June 22, the Ministry of Health of Haiti issued an alert to parents not to administer these products and prohibited their sale. The manufacturing company announced a recall of these and other syrup products it produces. Following the recall and an ongoing public information campaign, the number of new cases declined sharply; the last reported case-patient was admitted to a hospital on June 29. The traceback investigation, which is being conducted in collaboration with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), indicates that glycerin used in the formulation of these syrups was contaminated with DEG. The contaminated glycerin was imported to Haiti from another country.


It appears from what I've been seeing, is that you only get the toxin DEG if the base liquid, either VG or PG has been contaminated with DEG, or anti-freeze grade PG.
It seems that some companies are also cutting their VG with less than food grade PG, so the best thing is, if your supplier either makes his own, like Vt Vapor, or KNOWS who is making his product, then ASK what they put into it, and if they know THEIR suppliers are selling the Real Deal!

I don't know what model Smoking Everywhere was being tested, but they were the only e cig tested that emitted DEG! The others did not.

However, ALL nicotine juices tested emitted carcinogens, and even a 0 nicotine juice that was tobacco flavored had amounts of carcinogens. So, if you're vaping tobacco flavored, or nicotine e juice, you're getting carcinogens.

Interesting...other flavors tested that did not contain either tobacco flavorings or nicotine, came up inert! So, you folks that have given up nicotine, or have never used it and don't use tobacco flavorings seem to be in the clear...as long as you're not getting juice from Smoking Everywhere...

Also interesting....DEG is used in the production of tobacco used in cigarettes, so in addition to all the bad stuff you're already getting in cigs, you're also getting DEG!


Here's the test. Tested were a Smoking Everywhere e-cig, and an NJOY e-cig. A couple of interesting notes: The ONLY Smoking Everywhere flavor that produced DEG was the 555 flavor, all others resulted in ND (Not Detected).

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/S.../UCM173250.pdf

And, the NJOY Menthol had the absolute HIGHEST level of nicotine, so if you're looking for a nic hit, get an NJOY with Menthol carts!
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Old 01-24-2010, 12:12 PM   #19
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Old 01-24-2010, 03:05 PM   #20
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Thanks everybody for the feedback. I wasn't expecting such an overwhelming response!

So basically what I'm hearing is:
Try VG, see how it affects my throat.
Avoid using pre-filled carts, and just drip my own.
Buy only US-made cart juices.
Use Fluval material to drip my own carts.

Also, I have not had a reaction to other products containing PG. Non-alcoholic mouthwashes, hand lotions, cough syrup - none of these things. Hmmm.
Fluval works, but Rena works also if you can't find the 100% cotton filters made by Fluval. I'm using Rena right now, and they work very well! Otherwise it looks like you hit the nail on the head.
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Old 01-24-2010, 09:58 PM   #21
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Fluval works, but Rena works also if you can't find the 100% cotton filters made by Fluval. I'm using Rena right now, and they work very well! Otherwise it looks like you hit the nail on the head.
COTTON FILTERS?!?!?!

I've been using THIS!

http://www.fluvalparts.com/catalog/104foam.jpg

No wonder I have to keep refilling it every three puffs!
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:00 AM   #22
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COTTON FILTERS?!?!?!

I've been using THIS!

http://www.fluvalparts.com/catalog/104foam.jpg

No wonder I have to keep refilling it every three puffs!
I didn't trust the idea of having so much heat up against foam so I went with cotton. Works really well for me! I change out the batting roughly once a week just for consistency sake. Otherwise it could probably last a little longer. And you can cut out A LOT of batting out of 1 filter.
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Old 02-01-2010, 05:43 PM   #23
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Hey Everybody,

Thanks again for everyone's input. Based on what I read on these forums, I checked out Vermont Vapors and Johnson Creek. I ordered empty (blank) carts and a syringe from Johnson Creek (but not their e-juice, because it contains some PG), and I ordered some e-juice from Vermont Vapors (since they use VG). Got the supplies last week, and it certainly fixed the problem! No more throat problems to speak of, and the juice certainly tastes better!

My only issues are: I wish I was getting bigger clouds of vapor, and I'd like a stronger throat-hit. I still have the desire to smoke an analog every so often, but now it's more like 1 a day instead of 10.

Thanks!
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Old 02-01-2010, 06:41 PM   #24
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That is the trade off AWB, with PG you get a throat hit, with VG you get big clouds of vapor ... have you considered maybe a 30/70 ratio of PG/VG?

I've read some folks are overly sensitive to PG and they must use VG so I assume you fall into that category.

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Old 02-01-2010, 06:52 PM   #25
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LeCig,

Thanks for the idea. It's also possible that I have no real problem with PG, but in using the pre-filled cartridges in my NJOY starter kit, the juice was old, or just crappy juice, or there was very little juice (dried up) in the cart that I tried. Who knows? Not sure. I'm new to all this, so thanks for the advice.
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