Which One Is Right/Wrong?? Acetoin/Diacetyl

IcomeNpeace · 01-07-2012, 06:33 AM

Would not let me edit previous post so I'll try again

Concerning (Diacetyl) The PA states a vanilla custard flavor, no matter who makes it, will have both acetoin and acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl) in it and is not safe for inhalation. The statement is on their site and can be found here http://capellaflavordrops.com/e-liquiduse.aspx

So which one is right? Would like opinions, when I first started DIY I had a bottle of Capella's vanilla custard and then I found out about the Diacetyl, so to be safe I stopped using it in my mixes and started to use it in my coffee, buy the way it does make the coffee taste good

Maybe the Wizard will chime in with his thoughts

Don't know whats wrong will not let me add the correct URL sorry

berger · 01-07-2012, 08:51 AM

I think this what you were trying to link to..not sure??

http://perfumersapprentice.com/flavo...p/custard.html

I searched around Caprella's site but didnt find any references to vaping so I dont know

I would have to think when you consider the fact theres trace amounts possible from the Acetoin production its really difficult to say how much a risk it really posses if any at this point. Hopefully Wiz can give us his opinion on this...Im not really sure what would be a acceptable inhalation exposure to diacetyl but I can guess chronic long term exposure like vaping may be wise to avoid.

IcomeNpeace · 01-07-2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berger

I think this what you were trying to link to..not sure??

http://perfumersapprentice.com/flavo...p/custard.html

I searched around Caprella's site but didnt find any references to vaping so I dont know

I would have to think when you consider the fact theres trace amounts possible from the Acetoin production its really difficult to say how much a risk it really posses if any at this point. Hopefully Wiz can give us his opinion on this...Im not really sure what would be a acceptable inhalation exposure to diacetyl but I can guess chronic long term exposure like vaping may be wise to avoid.

Thanks for the reply what I was posting earlier did not work so I'll try again and see if everything stays this time

Concerning (Diacetyl) The PA states a vanilla custard flavor, no matter who makes it, will have both acetoin and acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl) in it and is not safe for inhalation. The statement is on their site and can be found here http://perfumersapprentice.com/flavo...p/custard.html

Capella states there Flavors are Food Grade Flavorings , and are DIACETYL FREE and can be found here http://capellaflavordrops.com/e-liquiduse.aspx

So which one is right? Would like opinions, when I first started DIY I had a bottle of Capella's vanilla custard and then I found out about the Diacetyl, so to be safe I stopped using it in my mixes and started to use it in my coffee, buy the way it does make the coffee taste good

Maybe the Wizard will chime in with his thoughts

mrwizard · 01-07-2012, 11:05 PM

Wondered why my ears were burning...

I'll start by stating that without GC'ing Capella's Vanilla Custard flavoring there is no way for us to know exactly what's in it since Capella does not specifically list other custard-related ingredients such as Acetoin or Acetyl propionyl, like TPA does.

Capella just makes it known that they do not use Diacetyl, period.

Capella does state on their website FAQs,

Quote:

We do not use Diacetyl in ANY of our flavorings.
Even though Diacetyl is on the FDA approved GRAS list for flavoring manufacturers, there are other compounds available to mimic a buttery/creamy taste.

...which sounds to me like codewords for Acetoin and Acetyl propionyl.

As Linda states on the TPA link you have, it's possible for Acetoin to create trace amounts of Diacetyl.
One research paper I read on analysing Acetoin and Diacetyl in bacterial cultures mentioned that the researchers converted Acetoin into Diacetyl by a simple oxidation process involving ferric (iron) chloride.
Bottomline is this means that even though a flavoring company does not use Diacetyl directly, it's still possible for their flavoring to end up containing Diacetyl if they use Acetoin.

Is that trace amount going to be enough to create a health hazard or increase your risk of developing bronchiolitis obliterans (popcorn lung) in the average vaper?

Is the amount of Diacetyl absorbed when vaping Custard flavors still made with Diacetyl enough to reach that threshold of increased risk?

Are Acetoin or Acetyl propionyl themselves going to be found to be as much of a health risk as Diacetyl?

We can't know for sure as OSHA is still gathering the data to determine that, but they are concerned enough that they've already told us they ARE going to be changing the workplace regs regarding exposure.

What I do know is we have a very large, real-world experiment going on involving vaping guinea pigs, and I'm betting in the next decade or two we'll have those answers.

Personally, I'm vaping to get away from known health hazards, and since I have literally millions of flavor combinations to choose from that don't contain Diacetyl or Diacetyl-related compounds, I've got no desire or need to be a guinea pig for this particular experiment.

IcomeNpeace · 01-08-2012, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Wondered why my ears were burning...

I'll start by stating that without GC'ing Capella's Vanilla Custard flavoring there is no way for us to know exactly what's in it since Capella does not specifically list other custard-related ingredients such as Acetoin or Acetyl propionyl, like TPA does.

Capella just makes it known that they do not use Diacetyl, period.

Capella does state on their website FAQs,
...which sounds to me like codewords for Acetoin and Acetyl propionyl.

As Linda states on the TPA link you have, it's possible for Acetoin to create trace amounts of Diacetyl.
One research paper I read on analysing Acetoin and Diacetyl in bacterial cultures mentioned that the researchers converted Acetoin into Diacetyl by a simple oxidation process involving ferric (iron) chloride.
Bottomline is this means that even though a flavoring company does not use Diacetyl directly, it's still possible for their flavoring to end up containing Diacetyl if they use Acetoin.

Is that trace amount going to be enough to create a health hazard or increase your risk of developing bronchiolitis obliterans (popcorn lung) in the average vaper?

Is the amount of Diacetyl absorbed when vaping Custard flavors still made with Diacetyl enough to reach that threshold of increased risk?

Are Acetoin or Acetyl propionyl themselves going to be found to be as much of a health risk as Diacetyl?

We can't know for sure as OSHA is still gathering the data to determine that, but they are concerned enough that they've already told us they ARE going to be changing the workplace regs regarding exposure.

What I do know is we have a very large, real-world experiment going on involving vaping guinea pigs, and I'm betting in the next decade or two we'll have those answers.

Personally, I'm vaping to get away from known health hazards, and since I have literally millions of flavor combinations to choose from that don't contain Diacetyl or Diacetyl-related compounds, I've got no desire or need to be a guinea pig for this particular experiment.

Thanks for your response Wizard, I also do not want to be a guinea pig that's why I stopped using it. I also found out on the other Forum just a small peace below did not want to list it all.

“Research – We purchased a bottle of Vanilla Custard from Cappellas and had it shipped directly to a flavor analysis company. We requested testing for three ingredients, Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin.

The response we received is as follows.
“Good evening, Kimberly. Your check arrived today and thank you. Diacetyl, 2,3-Pentanedione, and Acetoin are all present in the Vanilla Custard sample that you sent. Just a very small amount of diacetyl, however. Let me know if you need anything else. “

Thanks Wizard I knew you would have an answer

mrwizard · 01-08-2012, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcomeNpeace

Capella states there Flavors are Food Grade Flavorings , and are DIACETYL FREE and can be found here http://capellaflavordrops.com/e-liquiduse.aspx

I read that page that you linked to and it disturbed me a little.
It states,

Quote:

Our Flavors are Food Grade Flavorings , and are DIACETYL FREE.

NOT PERFUME Chemicals or Perfume ingredients.

It looks like Capella is not only trying to backstab The Perfumers Apprentice, but is also either extremely ignorant or dishonest about their own products.

To clarify, there is absolutely no difference between the chemicals used by Perfumists and Flavor Chemists.
Any chemical that simulates the aroma of a particular substance, botanical or food (Aroma chemicals) is going to be used in both industries.
Unless Capella flavor drops have no scent at all, then yes, they do indeed use perfume chemicals and ingredients.

That ridiculous claim along with the deceptive way of not disclosing the use of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl doesn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling toward them.
It's a shame because I really do enjoy a few of their flavors.

To date, it looks like TPA is the only flavor mfg that is going out of their way to disclose all possible health hazards when used for vaping.

IcomeNpeace · 01-09-2012, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

I read that page that you linked to and it disturbed me a little.
It states,

It looks like Capella is not only trying to backstab The Perfumers Apprentice, but is also either extremely ignorant or dishonest about their own products.

To clarify, there is absolutely no difference between the chemicals used by Perfumists and Flavor Chemists.
Any chemical that simulates the aroma of a particular substance, botanical or food (Aroma chemicals) is going to be used in both industries.
Unless Capella flavor drops have no scent at all, then yes, they do indeed use perfume chemicals and ingredients.

That ridiculous claim along with the deceptive way of not disclosing the use of Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl doesn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling toward them.
It's a shame because I really do enjoy a few of their flavors.

To date, it looks like TPA is the only flavor mfg that is going out of their way to disclose all possible health hazards when used for vaping.

My thoughts exactly, if it was possible to make the flavors without Diacetyl in them I'm sure the other company's would produce those items and not have statements and warnings about Diacetyl being an ingredient in certain flavors.

Another question while I was reading on the other place one member was concerned about Diacetyl being in his coconut, his supplier replied and told him no. So I am using coconut from Cappellas, could Diacetyl be an ingredient? I know I can't ask Capella cause I don't trust him. Just trying to be safe.

mke67 · 03-05-2012, 11:19 AM

This the precise reason I DIY now.

WyldRice · 03-05-2012, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mke67

This the precise reason I DIY now.

same here- I love that I can see through all my juices/mixes...
Caramel is the darkest, but I can still see through it!
Your DIY Best bet -imho- (edit) I use liquids SOLD by Wizard Labs. So I can't go wrong!

mke67 · 03-05-2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyldRice

same here- I love that I can see through all my juices/mixes...
Caramel is the darkest, but I can still see through it!
Your DIY Best bet -imho- I've only use liquids approved by Wizard Labs. So I can't go wrong!

Nice prices!!! And I thought MyFreedomSmokes was the cheapest nic-liquid out there. Thanks, as I was about to purchase some today.

mrwizard · 03-05-2012, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyldRice

same here- I love that I can see through all my juices/mixes...
Caramel is the darkest, but I can still see through it!
Your DIY Best bet -imho- I've only use liquids approved by Wizard Labs. So I can't go wrong!

Gack!
Whoa. Hang on and put both wheels back on the blacktop. You're riding over shaky ground and it makes me uncomfortable.
Nobody has approved food flavorings for the kind of exposure we subject ourselves to.
We don't know what the longterm health effects will be yet.
The best we can do is avoid the known health hazards (Diacetyl, etc.), and hope for the best with the unknowns.

Just because ole Wiz does something or has an opinion doesn't make it fact.
The only thing I really approve of is TPA's practice of disclosing ingredients that are known health hazards or high risk... unlike some mfgs.

I vape some flavorings with artificial colors from time to time... not often, but I still do.
That doesn't mean they're safe or I approve of them.
It's just a risk that I'm willing to take every now and then.
We don't have any evidence that they're either safe or unsafe for vaping, so that's a judgement call everyone needs to make for themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcomeNpeace

So I am using coconut from Cappellas, could Diacetyl be an ingredient? I know I can't ask Capella cause I don't trust him. Just trying to be safe.

Sorry Peace, this one must've fallen off the radar.
To the best of my knowledge there is no reason to use any of the butter-related compounds in a coconut flavoring.
So as far as Diacetyl is concerned, chances are there's none in Capella's coconut either... but read the above about what Wiz's opinions are worth.

mrwizard · 03-05-2012, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mke67

Nice prices!!! And I thought MyFreedomSmokes was the cheapest nic-liquid out there. Thanks, as I was about to purchase some today.

Actually, if you like using MyFreedomSmokes best, watch and wait for some of Mike's sales.
I've seen his prices get as low or lower than mine when he runs some coupon codes.

ToweKnee · 03-05-2012, 01:01 PM

a JFYI on Caps Van or custards. Here is a research sheet sent to me from Tom at Capella's within minutes of my concern about this.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Upw/edit?pli=1

Also most research labs adhere by tolerances which is .4%. an Indication of <0.4% means there are not traces of dycatel. If there was indication would be >0.4%. The only reason i know this is my friend has his own energy drink out there and his chemist lives right by me. I talked to him about it the form and from his perspective there are no indications of Dicatyl in there. Im not hear to say Caps is better than TPA or anything like that. I do know that a lot of my TPA flavorings are still sitting in my unused box due to tasting like chemicals or perfume. I have yet to have a bad flavor from Caps. Not to mention since using Caps DIY just seems too easy. Now Im not saying I just use Caps either cause there are some flavorings I use from TPA, FA and few others. All i would say is research the stuff you are using if your DIY and make your own judgement.

ToweKnee · 03-05-2012, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcomeNpeace

“Research – We purchased a bottle of Vanilla Custard from Cappellas and had it shipped directly to a flavor analysis company. We requested testing for three ingredients, Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin.

The response we received is as follows.
“Good evening, Kimberly. Your check arrived today and thank you. Diacetyl, 2,3-Pentanedione, and Acetoin are all present in the Vanilla Custard sample that you sent. Just a very small amount of diacetyl, however. Let me know if you need anything else. “

Thanks Wizard I knew you would have an answer

Go back to that thread and read my statements that I posted at end of the thread. I have asked over and over to be provided with a tech detail sheet of that analysis. I still have yet to receive it after almost 3 weeks going on now. Just because someone puts text in a box does not make it a fact. Sorry but the stories I have read and the facts of my own research on DIYshop would scare you away. I wont say anymore cause Im not about vendor bashing but some people need to know where their stuff comes from and how it is handled.

WyldRice · 03-05-2012, 02:00 PM

Sorry Wiz-
I meant I feel safest if I know it's coming from you- sure, it's not entirely safe, but the safest I could find.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Gack!
Whoa. Hang on and put both wheels back on the blacktop. You're riding over shaky ground and it makes me uncomfortable.
Nobody has approved food flavorings for the kind of exposure we subject ourselves to.
We don't know what the longterm health effects will be yet.
The best we can do is avoid the known health hazards (Diacetyl, etc.), and hope for the best with the unknowns.

Just because ole Wiz does something or has an opinion doesn't make it fact.
The only thing I really approve of is TPA's practice of disclosing ingredients that are known health hazards or high risk... unlike some mfgs.

I vape some flavorings with artificial colors from time to time... not often, but I still do.
That doesn't mean they're safe or I approve of them.
It's just a risk that I'm willing to take every now and then.
We don't have any evidence that they're either safe or unsafe for vaping, so that's a judgement call everyone needs to make for themselves.

Sorry Peace, this one must've fallen off the radar.
To the best of my knowledge there is no reason to use any of the butter-related compounds in a coconut flavoring.
So as far as Diacetyl is concerned, chances are there's none in Capella's coconut either... but read the above about what Wiz's opinions are worth.

I love your opinions!

mke67 · 03-05-2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Actually, if you like using MyFreedomSmokes best, watch and wait for some of Mike's sales.
I've seen his prices get as low or lower than mine when he runs some coupon codes.

Do YOU have any coupon codes?

mke67 · 03-05-2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToweKnee

a JFYI on Caps Van or custards. Here is a research sheet sent to me from Tom at Capella's within minutes of my concern about this.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Upw/edit?pli=1

Also most research labs adhere by tolerances which is .4%. an Indication of <0.4% means there are not traces of dycatel. If there was indication would be >0.4%. The only reason i know this is my friend has his own energy drink out there and his chemist lives right by me. I talked to him about it the form and from his perspective there are no indications of Dicatyl in there. Im not hear to say Caps is better than TPA or anything like that. I do know that a lot of my TPA flavorings are still sitting in my unused box due to tasting like chemicals or perfume. I have yet to have a bad flavor from Caps. Not to mention since using Caps DIY just seems too easy. Now Im not saying I just use Caps either cause there are some flavorings I use from TPA, FA and few others. All i would say is research the stuff you are using if your DIY and make your own judgement.

Which TPA flavors are perfumy/chemically tasting or smelling?

JohnnyJames · 03-05-2012, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToweKnee

a JFYI on Caps Van or custards. Here is a research sheet sent to me from Tom at Capella's within minutes of my concern about this.

Im not hear to say Caps is better than TPA or anything like that. I do know that a lot of my TPA flavorings are still sitting in my unused box due to tasting like chemicals or perfume. I have yet to have a bad flavor from Caps.

Just goes to show how different taste can be.

Awhile ago when Cappellas was first discovered I tried the Vanilla Custard and Banana split. I absolutely detested both. I even tried to just barely get a little flavor. I found it way too cloying and weird and almost nauseating after vaping as little as a cart full (.4ml). I ended up even tossing the cart as it smelled enough to bother me.

If folks are concerned about what's in the liquid they should look towards the Sucralose that is often used as a sweetener. This is some strange stuff, where artificial takes on new meaning. They luv to infer it's relationship to Sugar.

Quote:

Sucralose was actually discovered while trying to create a new insecticide.

Sucralose is made when sugar is treated with trityl chloride, acetic anhydride, hydrogen chlorine, thionyl chloride, and methanol in the presence of dimethylformamide, 4-methylmorpholine, toluene, methyl isobutyl ketone, acetic acid, benzyltriethlyammonium chloride, and sodium methoxide, making it unlike anything found in nature.

Cool.

mke67 · 03-07-2012, 01:59 PM

Well, just did an order from WL. Waiting for it to ship.

Peanut Butter Flavor Concentrate
Caramel Candy Flavor Concentrate
Cinnamon Danish Flavor Concentrate
Pineapple Flavor Concentrate
Strawberry Flavor Concentrate
Belgian Waffle Flavor Concentrate
Double Chocolate Flavor Concentrate
Graham Cracker Crust Flavor Concentrate
Peppermint Flavor Concentrate
Coconut Extra Flavor Concentrate
Banana Flavor Concentrate
VG-250ML
PG-60ml
100MG-60ML
Carrier Base Liquid: 100% USP PG

JD4x4 · 03-07-2012, 02:26 PM

Doh! That's about how many lines of stuff I just ordered from WL also!
I'm guessing that with the move, we certainly aren't the only ones. Explains why I got a shipping label email that was sent at 1 am!!
Slow down (not too much) and relax Wiz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mke67

Well, just did an order from WL. Waiting for it to ship.

Peanut Butter Flavor Concentrate
Caramel Candy Flavor Concentrate
Cinnamon Danish Flavor Concentrate
Pineapple Flavor Concentrate
Strawberry Flavor Concentrate
Belgian Waffle Flavor Concentrate
Double Chocolate Flavor Concentrate
Graham Cracker Crust Flavor Concentrate
Peppermint Flavor Concentrate
Coconut Extra Flavor Concentrate
Banana Flavor Concentrate
VG-250ML
PG-60ml
100MG-60ML
Carrier Base Liquid: 100% USP PG

mke67 · 03-07-2012, 02:29 PM

Ordered on Tues. Hope it ships today. He can slow down after mine goes out. Lol!

mrwizard · 03-07-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD4x4

Doh! That's about how many lines of stuff I just ordered from WL also!
I'm guessing that with the move, we certainly aren't the only ones. Explains why I got a shipping label email that was sent at 1 am!!
Slow down (not too much) and relax Wiz.

LOL

Yep. There was a scary flood of orders right after we opened the site back up.
Mrs Wiz, bless her heart, hung in there until almost midnight last night... then gave me a call around 3am to tell me to get my *** home.
We were still working on orders from the 5th.

We're just starting on the orders from Tues, and I'm running on about 3 hours sleep right now.
Mke, I can't make any promises, but I'll see what I can do to get yours packed and shipped today.
I'll let Mrs Wiz know I can slow down then.

Thanks guys for all the support!

mke67 · 03-07-2012, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

LOL

Yep. There was a scary flood of orders right after we opened the site back up.
Mrs Wiz, bless her heart, hung in there until almost midnight last night... then gave me a call around 3am to tell me to get my *** home.
We were still working on orders from the 5th.

We're just starting on the orders from Tues, and I'm running on about 3 hours sleep right now.
Mke, I can't make any promises, but I'll see what I can do to get yours packed and shipped today.
I'll let Mrs Wiz know I can slow down then.

Thanks guys for all the support!

Your acknowledgement is appreciated. I'll wait until next week to place my next order so you guys can enjoy each others company for a little while.

Thanks to Mrs.Wiz and you.

PS: I like your site. Nice, clean, simple navigation without a million sub-categories, and uncluttered. Good work.

mke67 · 03-07-2012, 05:33 PM

Thanks for the package Wiz! You two can now take a break.

Oh, by the way Christopher Lambert did a good as Conner MacLeod (name changed for fictional purposes) as "you" in "HIGHLANDER." LOL!!!

mrwizard · 03-08-2012, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mke67

Thanks for the package Wiz! You two can now take a break.

Oh, by the way Christopher Lambert did a good as Conner MacLeod (name changed for fictional purposes) as "you" in "HIGHLANDER." LOL!!!

Aye laddie, he did at that.

Btw, thanks for the notice.
We just recently started moving away from Paypal for payments and shipping.
I installed mods on the site to use our business banking account to process credit cards and stamps.com to print shipping labels.

I had no idea stamps.com was sending out my personal info instead of our business info in the email notifications.
I wonder how many customers are saying, "Who's this MacLeod guy, and why's he sending me a package?"

Hmmm... 24 to 48 hours to update info?
Dammit, the internets is supposed to be instant gratification!

Yes, Mrs Wiz can make me come home, but she can't keep me off the internets.

Btw, if you happen to see a post that looks like this:

dbg+gs2q==!hcvoe648m/hofd?euiw&gsh45(42nksad),jbdsk-kdsk..ht

It's not some cryptic equation... it just means I've finally passed out from exhaution and my head is laying across the keyboard.