Rocketman

Oh, they will get our money here also.
Rob peter (tobacco) to pay paul (e-cig) they WILL get their money.
Outlaw e-cigs, and one pocket got a whole in it (think there's a song about that).
Stash, freezer, back up generator. last it out as long as you can before the cost goes up. Because it will go up. DIY may save you a little.
Technical errors in the FDA statement can be refuted and will be. Statements indicating lack of control of product safety is pretty much correct. Some supply chains are reputable and safe, but counterfeit money, food, drugs, and rocketship parts still get through. Their claims that the materials haven't been proven safe will remain a truth until the chain is locked down. PG that ain't food grade, while still at a level that won't kill you indicates to me that someone used "anti-freeze grade" PG somewhere up the line. Yes, "anti-freeze grade". If it ain't Food grade it ain't food. I already harped on marketing to kids, I give ya'll a little break from that.

The Rocket
BTW, "Vegetable" Glycerine? Vegetables ain't food, vegetables is what food eats.
Give me Glycerine made from pig renderin.

Rocketman

I hope ya'll know all this harping about the FDA is really cutting into my shopping time.

Khadijah

If the FDA/Gov figures out they can't stop e-cigs from being imported/sold/smoked in the U S, they will simply tax it as they do anologs, rolling tobacco, etc. They WILL get their money. I think part of the reason the Gov is upset (the FDA is the Gov) is that they are losing all those dollars they used to get when we smoked analogs.

But I don't understand what/how the FDA has any control over foriegn companies.

Rocketman

Oh! U.S.Customs, exercising it's power to equalized the trade deficit.

"you guys get it right, or you can't sell to us".

U.S. Customs, driving up the price of kids toys at Walmart.
What will we do without the lead toys come Christmas.

Breakfree

They don't have control over foreign companies, their control is at the border.

Khadijah

Does that mean my China ecig supplier would probably be willing to continue shipping to me if ecigs were banned by the FDA, as long as I was willing to take the risk of my package being confiscated by Customs?

I always ask for a nuetral package. My last order was for about $110 plus shipping. The company put "inhalers" on the packing slip and claimed a value of $31. I was happy about the value claimed, but next time I'm going to tell the company to NOT put "inhalers" as the contents.

VapingVictoria

Why is that the government feels we are too stupid to care for our own health and bodies? Yes, I agree we should know exactly what is in the juice, where it came from and all that jazz. I work within the medical community and I have seen many cases of people going without a medication or a treatment that they need because they can not afford a Dr. And this is for simple things like antibiotic ointments, birth control, asthma inhalers and such. Are we too stupid to know we have an infection ?

Why do we have to pay a Dr a $150, plus take the day off work so someone can say "Hey your right you need a $15 tube of Tobradex." In many other countries I can go right into the pharmacy and purchase what I know I need and that government respect the fact that I can make an intelligent decision all by myself.

*stepping down from my soapbox*

Rocketman

I agree, especially when there is the internet to check out symptoms and medications, and veterinarian, or drug companies in Canada, or Mexico for medications we can't get here in the states in the first place. We ain't all dummies. (they need to print a "self medication for dummies" book for those that are dummies). If the government hadn't gotten into the smoking game in the first place I could still be peaceably smoking my cigars at my desk. And if that bothered someone they could leave. I had a friend that worked at Sandia Labs in Nevada. His son had grown a third eye. Of course the government said it had nothing to do with the guys job or the low level radiation in the ground water so they wouldn't cover it. So he ordered a case of Tobradex from Mexico (through a friend he had at Alcon Mexico). His son's third eye cornea dried up, flaked off, the eye drained, and the eye hole closed up (just looks like a wrinkle now). That would have cost $30,000 to $40,000 for the complete surgical treatment. He is 16 now and the wrinkle hardly ever oozes.

Rocket

And as far as birth control medication, every teenage girl knows that if you let 2 aspirins dissolve in coke in your mouth (without swallowing) that you won't get pregnant. You do have to do it the same night though or it won't work.

(I thought the eye was just way too cool the way it was)

and in the -----for dummies book category:
Sex for Dummies, 3rd Edition (what's different from the 1st edition?)
Medicines for Dummies (Christmas present for your health specialist?)
here's a good one "Twitter for Dummies" (redundant?)
Cosmetic Surgery for Dummies (with a DIY section)

Rocketman

OK, so we don't like the idea of e-cigs being banned by the FDA.
Find me an honest supplier that will sell me a couple of personal vaporizers, with empty cartridges, no juice, just the vaporizer.

Not so fast, a few conditions here.

You know, a supplier that doesn't make any health claims, no mention of this being an alternative to smoking tobacco, no lies about cartridge life or battery life. And it doesn't have to be the "BEST E-CIG" on the market. No big ads or testimonials about how it helped someone quit smoking. Doesn't sell or advertise other products on the same website that might be illegal, that claim to be nicotine replacement devices, or sell in combination with nic juice as a "drug delivery system". Or that I can "Smoke it Anywhere" just to piss people off.

One that will ship it with a honest customs declaration and declared value. If I think I can vape nic juice in it, that's my business. If I want to "vape" in a restaurant and no one complains, that's my business. If I want to vape ginseng, or extract from the Himalayan Goji berry, or nutria juice that's my business. Just the device, a "Personal Pleasure Vaporizer" not an "Electronic Cigarette". Don't hype it as an alternative to smoking, I'll worry about what to put in it. Let me decide how and when I will use it and what I will put in it to vape. Maybe I'll just vape cognac in it. I'm of legal age.

If a supplier has to hype the "benefits" or how their product is so much better than another model then just make sure the "claims" are truthful. Why do they need to lie just to make a profit. It's all about the money, what else. Separate the device from the NIC Juice. Sell the vaporizer. Someone else sell various types of liquid to vape in it (maybe even nicotine juice). Lose the big ad campaigns, the hype, the lies, the outrageous profits. Sorry if you won't make millions selling it. Can't wait for all the replies to this one.

The Rocket

Mick

Rocket, I posted this earlier. I to believe that no one can tell me what to do with the parts I buy. Like I said just sell parts and let us assembly them as we may and use them as we may. I'm with you on this rocket.

See below an earlier post I made.

"One way around this whole thing would be for these e-cig companies to quit selling e-cig starter kits per say. How could the FDA stop them from making batteries or atomizers, chargers or just parts in general. Selling these items as just parts. If then the individual decides to assembly these parts into an e-cig who could stop you from doing so? As far as the juice goes it's the same for them. If LorrAnns can sell there products why cant the juice companies do the same and once again if an individual wants to use these juices in there assembled parts contraption so be it. Obviously it's not illegal to sell nicotine or the tobacco companies would be out of business.
These are just some thoughts, please don't hang me if my facts are wrong. This is just about worst case thinking anyway. I for one hopes the FDA see this as a better alternative to smoking real cig's along with everyone else.

I know there is a lot more to all this and I know I don't have all my facts straight but maybe if enough ideas get thrown out there, we may be able to find a work around if all else fails.

Mick "

Rocketman

Mick,
We can go back and forth agreeing on this
There just won't be as much money in it for the e-cig peddlers if they can't hype all the benefits and the complete "package". It's the hype that's making them the money, and the hype that is causing the trouble.

I can legally buy electronic components to make a cell phone jammer.
But the completed jammer is illegal to sell.
Personal Pleasure Vaporizers might be legal to sell, complete kits with juice might not.

The "BIG" money has to be made quick.

Back to you

Mick

I'm not sure what you mean by "the "BIG" money has to be made quick. Every part of the Personal Pleasure Vaporizer is a consumable item. I' sure these companies are making money from return customers buying the consumables.

Realistically the only part that is in question is the nicotine juice itself. Once you have your parts you can buy all your flavors and pg/vg from someone like LorAnns. Right know it may be simpler to buy already mixed e-liquid. But is that the real big money maker for the e-cig companies? I don't know I'm just asking.

Mick

Rocketman

Those that sell a kit for $149.99 to $199.99, and special cartridges for $2 to $3 each. Quick, big money. Those that "Sell-It-Everywhere".
Not the ones promoting components and juice. But even they sell a hyped up "total Package" deal.
A lot of us know more than they want us to.

And again Mick, I want to agree that Nicotine is the primary issue here. The medical community pretty much agrees that nicotine is addictive and wants to wean all tobacco users. They would even allow the FDA to spearhead this effort. I bet that hurts. Wait for the low nic cigarette from Phillip Morris using the liquid CO2 stripping technique as the only available legal cigarette.
We are advocating breaking the FDA's control of tobacco/nicotine by buying an alternative with a nearly unlimited nic level. And we even have the nerve to complain that they (the FDA) don't like our circumventing their actions. The nerve of them folks.

and a late edit here:
"One way around this whole thing would be for these e-cig companies to quit selling e-cig starter kits per say. How could the FDA stop them from making batteries or atomizers, chargers or just parts in general. Selling these items as just parts. If then the individual decides to assembly these parts into an e-cig who could stop you from doing so?"
That's a good point Mick- quit selling kits - but will they? With out hinting that it's really an e-cig. How about a parallel here: precursor chemicals for a meth lab? There's several legit uses for ammonium nitrate around the house. Or buying a 6 month survival supply of pseudoephedrine? Maybe the swamp lady and I get a lot of colds and needs 60 packs of cold medicine.

The big question: who will give in first?
The little question: do you have enough stash to make it through?
Rocket,

renderwerks

I'll weigh in here (might as well).

I've been following the "daily docket update" thread on the other forum about the SE/nJoy vs FDA court case. It is being moderated by a person (Sun Vaporer) whom is either an attorney or has a great deal of knowledge about law.

The problem with selling parts are the "intended use". The Intended Use Doctrine is what is in play legally. PV's have already been designed and marketed as a cigarette replacement device or an electric cigarette. A cigarette is a nicotine delivery system. So, the intended use of a PV is as a nicotine delivery system. This is the FDA argument.

It doesn't matter what you or I use it for. I saw somewhere that it can be used to "smoke" cocaine or speed. It can be used to "smoke" pot oil. Most use it to "smoke" PG or VG with nicotine and flavor in it.

If the FDA wins the case against SE and nJoy (and probably will), it will uphold and set a precident for their powers of embargo against our devices.

The makers of our devices and liquid would probably still be willing to sell to us. But there will be a problem. If (when) it is banned (awaiting regulation, etc), there will be few (if any) parties willing to risk being involved with facilitating payment or shipping of a banned item. Yes, you can still get illegal items if you look hard enough. They will not be able to stop it all. But the regular, easy avenues will dry up. PayPal has been threatened with litigation, they stopped. Some large online websites have stopped advertisements. The financial institutions (PayPal, Western Union, CC payment systems, etc) are licensed by the government. So are the cargo carriers. They won't risk being fined or shut down because of knowingly involving themselves in a banned item.

We can make our own battery holders - check one.

Carts are durable or easily made - check two.

Ingredients are available for liquid - check three.

Nicotine can be purchased (maybe) or extracted - check four.

Atomizers? That might be a tougher endeavour. But probably could be done. Perhaps an alternative exists that we haven't found yet.

Rocketman

Thanks for monitoring the other forums.
Intended use is a good point and the mechanism for precursor enforcement.
A completely new and "clean" marketing approach for a "PPV" would need to be "believable".
Agree with the checks.
Do you have enough atomizers, enough NIC juice, enough NATA ammo (just had to toss that in) to make it though the "hard times"?
Rocket

renderwerks

Think so -

Have over a liter of juice, unflavored and flavored, and mixins

Got 25+ attys

The SKS and 1000 or so rounds is oiled and ready for action...

Rocketman

......

Mick

Rick, do you have a feel for any kind of time line before a decision is made one way or the other?

Mick

Rocketman

Reading this and then looking at your avatar.
chills, sends chills


and more chills

renderwerks

Sun Vaporer says that Judge Leon should render () a decision within a few weeks of final arguments being made. That happened 8-9 days ago.

Don't worry Rocket, I only carry one bullet at a time, in my shirt pocket. But I've tried to update to the times:

Rocketman

Ha, nipped that one in the bud,
it will never go away either.

Attached Thumbnails

VapingVictoria

wait a minute...2 aspirin? Really?

VapingVictoria

Come on, we all know the FDA is just stalling for time to see how they can squeeze the maximum amount of money out of us.

If they really cared about our health Roxanol would not be on the market, along with diet soda, aspertane and many other "safe" chemicals. Let's get real.

America...Home of the to stupid to make out own choices.

VapingVictoria

Maybe it's time to set up shop in someplace with easy access say like the Bahamas. For $300 you can take a 3 day booze cruise, stock, up get a suntan, snap a few family photos and only miss 1 day at the office.

Lazarus

I've got a few toys (all legally owned):



Got plenty of rounds for everything except the M203...got some practice rounds to scare them off though..