renderwerks

With the recent FDA press release (as biased and unethical as it was - bastards), I have become more sentient of the importance of identification and traceability of ingredients used in the manufacture of e-liquid.

• Do you have the ability, if needed, to identify to which customer an individual container of e-liquid was shipped?

• If so, how?

• Can you tell us what tests are being performed or what safeguards are in place to insure your customers that the e-liquid you sell is safe?

I believe that many of us in the vaping community have recently become concerned with the source of ingredients and the ability to be quickly informed should a problem arise.

Thanks for your time,

Rick

WhiteRobin

Here's an ingredient link to the Totally Wicked liquid that I provide at: eSmokesUSA : Totally Wicked Flavored Smoking Liquids

This lab report is one of the only ones I have been able to find. You can find the link above or here:

http://www.theelectroniccigarette.co...dLabReport.pdf

godling

I've read that 80-90% of all eJuice on the market is manufactured by Dekang, and I don't believe they have any way of identifying where individual products may have gone.

Resellers should contact their suppliers and ask them to pass the message along. Until Dekang establishes product tracking, sellers of their products can't either.

renderwerks

True - perhaps not tracking, but we have seen some evidence of independent testing (see previous post by WhiteRobin).

A couple stateside manufacturers have eluded to the ability to act quickly and notify customers if a problem with their liquid should arise. They seem to know what went to which customers.

Additionally, electronicstix has recently put ingredient lists and MSDS sheets up for his liquid. Nice to see some vendors taking the initiative.

Also, I recently posted in a thread asking about the possibility of VG degrading into acrolein - got some good vendor responses here. Including a link to more independent testing. Way to go!

So, we have seen some changes recently.

I wholeheartedly agree - vendors, write to your suppliers, let them know of the increased awareness of your customers. You can sell more liquid; that means they can sell you more liquid.

We all know the suppliers respond to increased sales, as well as decreased sales...

Rick

Rocketman

Render: keep pushing on those manufacturers and overseas distributors.
I have a question for the small LLC guys here in the states.
I like RedBull flavor. I have no idea what goes into it and probably don't want to know. I can't duplicate it at home so I buy it. Now, not to knock anyone, because all that I have tested is good, all supposedly comes from the same great lab in China, but for some odd reason each order from different sellers tastes and vapes differently. Is it really coming from the same place? Has anyone else noticed differences in the same flavors? BTW the absolute best, killer, RedBull came from that weekend special that HealthySmokeShop put on a few months back before going out of business. It came from Dekang, I think Patrick ordered directly from them, a really big order.
(hope all is well with you).
My point is : Is your middle man telling you the truth? If he sends you a copy of a COA from a certified lab, is it for the juice you have or the juice he used to sell. I got a copy of a COA dated 2004 for some PG. I hope it wasn't for the stuff I bought, because that meant it was 5 year old stuff.

oh and try this out for size:
e liquid, e liquid Manufacturers & Suppliers

renderwerks

YIKES!! 27 pages of e-liquid listings! Noticed several duplicate though.

Rocketman

and did you see the 5 liter sizes listed at some of the suppliers.

Couple of those and you'd be set. Just imagine, only one lot code to worry about for the next 40 years (just seal it up in some of the aluminized mylar like they put pop tarts in and put it in the freezer).

Rocket

Stehle

Rick, Has anyone done anymore tests on the long term effects of freezing e-liquids? I read some of your earlier data and it did look promising. Others at various forums that have been in this over a year say prolonged cold will ruin our nic-juice. I have a little over a gallon now that I stored in various places (including my closet), but have secured a good portion of it in the freezer as per Rocket's suggestion.

I am currently conducting temperature tests, but those results will not be available for at least a year.

Agreed! I am currently looking to make a sizable purchase of liquid (double my current inventory), so given the current FDA climate and the deals on liquids the past few weeks I was wondering if you might have any suggestions?

Rocketman

Is there a component in PG or VG e-juice (other than the water which is in solution) that freezes anywhere close to 0deg F? I think the PG/VG will get really thick. Stuff in solution modifies the freezing point but I don't think any of the "chains" will crack. Thawing may take a while, and then some separation may occur. Remixing (shaking) will mix everything back up. I don't see how long term would be different than short term for the temperatures we are talking about. -30 F might be a different story.
Rocket

renderwerks

I've not heard of any more testing giving any light to long term effects.

I did however have an email conversation with a vendor of "hi-test" unflavored liquid that a few of us bought from. He said that there was no discernable taste difference in liquid that he had stored at around -5C for over six months. Actually, I'm waiting on permission to post our conversation about my questions in regard to this thread.

I had inquired about the use of filling the airspace at the top of bottles with high purity nitrogen (an inert gas) to avoid oxygenation and increase shelf life and nix the resultant break down of molecular chains in the liquid. Surprisingly, he said he had tried it, and it noticeably changed the taste of the liquid within two weeks! Not sure what I think of those results.

Seems the best method is to remove "headspace" in the containers in some way. I thought of dropping some inert objects in the container. Teflon is non-reactive with practically everything, and those labratory stir "capsules" are fairly cheap and teflon coated.

Johnson Creek has stated that garden variety refrigeration gives their juice a shelf life of about 8 months. In an email, they said that they didn't recommend keeping it in the freezer because of possible flavor shifts. They said that it would experience a signifigant increase of viscosity as the juice neared 0 degrees fahrenheit.

Sorry I don't have more information. This seems to be the monster of all questions now...

Rick

Rocketman

If we remove the variable of flavors and other additives and keep long term to only RAW e-Juice, PG or VG and Nic only, then maybe we can tame the Monster.
Let's get a handle on this because some of us will be doing it, some may elect to rely on available sales.
Rocket

Stehle

Thank you for all the great input! I'll put a link up someday to the short term storage temperature trials that I'm conducting in a thread on another forum (ECF), no real point yet in duplicating the data here until the first month results are in. I already have horror stories, other members opinions and some really great ideas so far. I have multiple properties with refrigerators set at different temperature ranges. It would seem that liquids kept at under 45 degrees for about a year are suspect. Not quite so scientific, but its the consumers method of storage and confidence that beckons the question. "Is it safe?"

(Actually that was from the movie "Marathon Man", but you get the picture.)

Stehle

Very true indeed. Great input for raw (unflavored) juice, but the average vaper may not go the DIY route. We are looking into at all storage for everyone and a happy medium (temp) most will be able to live with.

The statement "Cool, dry, dark place." just ain't gonna cut it heyuh in the deep south.

Folks want data, facts, assurances... {sigh} ...For me personally, I see it as paying it forward with my new lease on life. It will happen or we can make it happen.

flavorcountry

I just received my first order of totally wicked, today. I don't know how nuch I'll like it as compared to other juices. However, they seem to have the labeling down. There were multible warnings. It was mentioned more than a couple of times to keep away from children and pets. I thought I saw an instruction to keep it out of sight of children, but I can't find that now.
There was also an extensive list of ingredients on the package. It looked like they listed chems used for extracting nicotine, but I'm not sure .
I'm not posting this to promote that particular product, but as an example of labeling that appears to EXCEDE anything FDA has required of other products. I don't see to many cigs with that accurate labeling, or warnings. TW even says to seek medical help if you don't feel well after using the product.

Stehle

I must have missed that one on the way to the hospital... (bada bump)

Seriously though, many suppliers should take a lesson from the TW liquid's label. It is at the very least how they all should be.

(On a personal note... I bought one 36mg Marl from them and was not totally impressed... though I hear they have a great menthol if you like that flavor.)

flavorcountry

Yeah,
I bought two bottles of the flavorless, becuase I've heard TW's supposed to be really good. I vaped a little of the flavorless, but not much as it's 36mg.

renderwerks

We're getting OT here (I know, I'm guilty too!). Got carried away...

Most from post #6 onwards could be a new thread. E-liquid Storage or something like that.

Any vendors want to verify the safety of their e-liquid? Can you answer the questions presented in the first post?

Rick

LibertyFlights

Something that no one seems to have pointed out is that should a bottle of each batch be tested? There have been some strange and different tasting liquids out and about but from the same supplier, flavour and strenghts, from one batch to another. Even TW have had this problem, I cast my mind back to French Pipe, Caramel just off the top of my head. Rocketmail kinda touched ont his point although I think he's driving more at what happens between dekang and the middle men.

We buy our liquid direct from dekang so at least we know it is as intended, I think (hah).

http://www.liberty-flights.com/documents/5ml.pdf
http://www.liberty-flights.com/documents/10ml.pdf
http://www.liberty-flights.com/documents/20ml.pdf
http://www.liberty-flights.com/documents/30ml.pdf

Rocketman

Liberty,
Testing a sample from each mixed batch of e-juice would be optimal. A COA would be on file for every batch. This would prevent counterfeit material from being introduced undetected. Unless too many bottle labels were printed.

As a minimum, the raw materials, such as PG should be traceable to a batch with a COA on file. One batch of PG can be 40,000 pounds or more. A mixer could buy a very small portion of the PG and as long as no one cheated (tossed in some cheap industrial grade stuff) then the e-juice batch could be trusted.

If a supplier, and I am not implying anyone does this, buys 55 gallons of USP PG with a COA and sells 300 gallons of e-juice, only an audit of receipts and shipments could detect this. The supplier could make a copy of the "BOGUS" COA for anyone that asked. This of course would not meet the FDA "Good Practices" guidelines.

Sounds like maybe some type of regulatory control ought to be placed on the manufacturing of Drug stuff, Food stuff, and now Vape stuff.

Do you trust your supplier, the middle man, the door to door salesman that handles your e-juice? Does a copy of a COA make you feel more comfy?

A problem with the end product first needs to be detected and reported, traced to the source, then reverse propagated to all end users. Who do you think would handle this type of recall if there was some type of adverse reaction by vaporers in the US?, the UK, the Netherlands?

As an end user (vaporhog) could you identify where the e-juice that made you sick came from? If it took 10 months for you to develop a kidney problem from vaping a little DEG mixed in with some of your juice could you tell which juice actually caused the problem? Do you vape from more that one source of juice (I do). Do you keep some of the left over from each batch to help with analysis of your medical condition? (I don't) Or would an issue with e-juice just indict all juice manufacturers? Gee, I wonder which juice killed that guy?

The Rocket

Rocketman

Oh no, Rocket got wound up !
We take exception to the FDA placing any controls on e-juice because of their apparent, and advertised ignorance of the relative safety of "Good" e-juice to tobacco. I totally agree that tobacco is the bad guy here.

We don't mind the FDA recalling peanut butter, Tylenol, chicken nuggets, but keep away from our e-juice. Monitoring the manufacturing and distribution process would probably be a good thing. Restricting use or taxation should be out of scope for a protective agency. You know "fox guarding the hen house". The FDA needs to keep their hands out of the financial aspects (or any implication) of e-juice. But as the number of vaporers increasing and becomes a larger percentage of the general population then we deserve protection.

The Rocket
Have to take a break, my two typing fingers are tired.

and in reference to the next post, thanks drdave, thanks Johnson Creek. are we on a roll. or what?

drdave

Hey Guys,
I saw this on the JC website and thought it would be a good look at on safety data. This report comes from a real US lab right here in Saint louis. This is the kind of responsible testing we should expect from the E-liquid guys. Way to go JC! Linky below.

http://www.johnsoncreeksmokejuice.co...CMS_Report.pdf

Rocketman

I bet they did that just to keep Rick, The Juice Cop off their back.

I uploaded the jpg so you can never make it go away

Attached Images

 

renderwerks

Way to nip it in the bud Rocket!

renderwerks

C'mon vendors! Step up to the plate?

If you have info on your site - this would be a good place to place a link. More free advertising! (IF you have info)

Breakfree

Ok JuiceCop, You twisted my arm, keep your taser holstered.

Though we don't sell eliquid we do independent tests for it in our carts.
Here are Green Smokes Certifications:

Green Smoke? Safety Certifications