Rocketman

Ok, couldn't wait had to do a couple of voltage checks.
The meter is a 5 1/2 digit HP3478A, still in calibration, and it checks in spec on my 10 volt and 10 ohm standards.

The following batteries were charged then allowed to sit for about an hour off the charger before testing: a 3000mah 18650, a 900mah 14500, and the battery cell removed from a disposable 510. A Titan labeled gold band 510 atty was used for a load test. The resistance of the atty, cold was 2.1748 ohms. I think this is the lowest resistance atty I have right now.
18650 unloaded voltage 4.211 V, loaded (3 seconds) 3.889 V
14500 unloaded voltage 4.208 V, loaded (3 seconds) 3.831 V
disposable 510 cell 4.113 V, loaded (3 seconds) 3.701 V
Only one 3 second load test per battery and the atty was allowed to cool between tests
I'll test some more this weekend (for real) but I have to get up early.
any bets on which battery lasts the longest?

Rocket

Hachiroku

I'm putting my money on the Genuine 510!

Rocketman

Well I don't know but the original 510 bats I had lasted a really long time before going south. Sort of surprising after seeing just how tiny they are and how low the resistance is with the Joye attys. I have several attys that I think are true Joye 510s. Resistance of most is around 2.3 ohms, one is almost 3 ohms but I have used it a lot, don't know what it was when new. And then opened a brand new one and 2.17 ohms, lowest yet. I don't know how it will vape.

The little disposable battery (the same one I put 30+ cycles on) surprised me with the loaded voltage it held with this super low resistance atty. I'll try several puffs on the batteries this weekend to see how fast the voltage falls off.

I'll need to decide what type of tests I want to do and make up cables. Holding wires, probes and trying to get repeatable results takes more hands than I've got.

And I'll bet a dollar to a donut the 18650 wins all tests, hands down.
Until the 25500 5000 mah Li-ion cells come in. Chinese New Year, slow boat, Vapor Christmas on it's way.

One last point. Per JJ, the disposable 510 "charger" is nothing more than a USB connector, two short wires and a massive 510 atty connector. Nothing else in it at all.

And another one last point, The cells in e-cig batteries are only sort of "protected cells". Once the "brain" dies, the protection dies too.

R

neakybird1

I watched the review and liked it. My only question is how do you recharge the battery or do you have to buy a new one each time?
Thanks..neakybird

Rocketman

Well, general e-cig battery thoughts.
I got a wake up call about assuming all the batteries used in e-cig were pretty much the same 3.7/4.2 volt Li-ion with just different mah ratings. So now it looks like the Joye 510 batteries are 3.6 volts (at the battery terminal) unloaded and about 3.1 volts loaded with a Joye atty (about 2.3 ohms). The Li-ion cell inside the 510 battery may be a variant of the normal Li-ion cell and not be a 3.7/4.2 volt***. The ones I cut apart weren't working properly and I'm not sure I have a new/good one to take apart and find out. Somebody out there knows, right?

To add recharge capabilities for devices like digital cameras that use 3.0 volt NON-rechargeable the Lithium Battery industry came up with a 3.6 volt battery with a built in circuit that almost instantly drops the output voltage to 3 volts under load. The CR2 size 3 volt rechargeable is like this (I think). Measure it with a voltmeter, it reads like a 3.6 volt Lithium, put a load on it, poof, 3.0 - 3.2 volts. Cool? Some people use 2 of these to make 6 volt mods. ***Is this what is really inside a Joye 510? Easy to make a mistake because the same physical size battery can usually be found in 3.7/4.2 volt. This might kill a 3 volt digital camera, and two of these would vape at 7 volts or more loaded. That'll heat your atty for sure.

Now disregarding Li-Po, LeFePo4, and other strange batteries like the Li-Flu (Lithium-Fluval), The regular run of the mill Li-ion battery like I use, charge up to 4.2 volts and load at about 3.7. I have a few different sizes I could test for my own knowledge, but the info should be available already. I did perform a quick loaded/unloaded test on a 18650 3.7/4.2v type battery MOD, with a 2.175 ohm 510 atty. I think the results are in the Joye 510 thread. I started mods with 10440 AAA size 3.7/4.2v batteries and Joye 510 attys and they worked fine. That was before I knew the standard 510 battery only put out 3 to 3.1 volts to the atty. No wonder I was happy with performance of those early mods.

The basic type of battery cell inside the e-cig battery whether 3.0/3.6 or 3.7/4.2 and Resistance of the atty will determine the maximum power, current, heat, whatever that can be delivered to the atty. Other components, wires, connections in the battery can reduce this maximum possible power, either by design, or due to age or component value drift, or failure. Batteries storage capacity, especially small overworked Li-ion batteries will decrease with age and/or abuse.
Interpretation: new battery is better than old battery.

Mixing up attys and batteries can produce varied results. You may intentionally mix to increase current (heat, TH, vapor), or to increase battery life (puffs per charge).

You may also end up unintentionally mixing up attys and batteries and be surprised that something is different. Maybe better, maybe not.

Don't know about you but I know more about this today than I did yesterday.

Rocket
and the beat goes on

Rocketman

Anybody want to test a 3.7/4.2 volt big battery MOD for almost free?
Get a 14500, 16340, 18500, 18650, 25500, whatever, Li-ion 3.7/4.2 volt battery and try your favorite atty using the paper clip mod. I posted a photo in a thread somewhere, but it can be seen in one of my albums in my Profile.

http://www.vapeatron.com/members/roc...erclipmod-105/
Give it a try, just to find out if 3.7 volts is in your future.


Rocket

Rocketman

Before I knew about the Joye 510 battery voltage I considered the Ni-mh 3 cell mod to be sort of weak (haven't tried it yet). 1.2 volts each, 3 would be 3.6 volts. What is the voltage under load using a Genuine Joye atty? Ni-mh are a little heavier and have less capacity for the same size than Li-ion, but are cheap and battery/charger combinations can be found in Walmart.
If the Joye 510 works for you , then no doubt the 3 Cell Ni-Mh Mod would also.
4 Ni-mh would be a neat 5 volt mod. A lot of chargers take 4 at a time.
Rocket

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Hachiroku

You forgot the Li-Fi-Pho-Phum and the MiniLi batteries...

JohnnyJames

I've always noted that some Li-ions say 3.7V while others say 3.6V. Most of the smaller earlier UP 10440's seemed to read 3.6V, Some 14500's too. I can't tell if this an unprotected batt or not.



It also appears the lower loaded voltage of the Joye 510 batt is not a function of the battery, but due to a Joye added circuit (Kanger KR808D batts are a full 3.7V under load and come off the charger at 4.2V unloaded). This I assume is intentional and may have something to due with battery and/or atty longevity. I've never had a Joye battery come off the charger at 4.2V even on a non Joye charger. They always come of at < 4V. Looking at BU we see that charging to < 4.2V will extend life (increase charge cycles), while charging to just 4.3V will cut battery life almost in half.



The flashlight fanatics will tweak their cheap chargers (difference resisters) to get a 4.18V (or so) cut-off out of them. You'll also note comments on DealExtreme when folks comment that some chargers don't cut off completely after the cut-off but continue to trickle. Bad news for Li-ion.

How to prolong lithium-based batteries

Rocketman

The protection circuit board is about a millimeter thick. I had a 18650 Red 3000mah(3000 HA) plastic cover get torn and circuit board come loose. I'll post a photo, but you could probably find the same thing on the web somewhere. I've also noticed the 3.6, 3.7 labels. There is a different chemistry that produces a 3.6 volt max from the 4.2 volt max. guess we have to test some more.

NOTE: a 10430 is unprotected and a 10440 should be protected but might be mislabeled by the manufacturer. The cheats
A 18650 Protected cell is longer (67 to 68 mm) than the unprotected cell (65.5) used in laptop battery packs.
Now a little caution to stack battery modders. the 3.0 volt CR2 size, CR123, rechargeable battery is really a 3.6 volt that has a circuit board added to drop the output under load to 3.0 volts (3.0 to 3.2) as a rechargeable replacement for the 3 volt photo lithium NON-rechargeble. 2 of these can be used for about 6 volts in a mod. The circuit may even be INSIDE the battery case.

EDITED TECHNICAL DETAILS

I will have to check the 14500, which I have a few "protected" cells and some other "?". The 905 MOD does have a sock full of electronics in it. Maybe it even has a low voltage cutoff, and doesn't NEED protected cells.
I need to test a few, read some more, but I believe the 3.6/3.0 RCR2 can be considered to be a "protected" cell. Any feedback is welcome.

Here's a novel thought. If you are concerned about Lithium battery safety, and are afraid that your e-cig battery is going to blow up in your face, stop vaping when vapor production gets low and don't leave them on charge after fully charged.
Maybe some more experimenting is in order next week.
I guess I ought to pay a little attention to the Swamp Lady this weekend.
You guys know what Sunday is, Right?
Rocket,

Hachiroku

They start selling Paczkis before Lent?

Rocketman

905 Voltages:
4.2 volt 14500, unloaded voltage at 905 connector is 3.87.
Loaded with 901 atty output is 3.56 volts.
Same atty on 901 battery read 4.21 volts unloaded, 3.84 volts loaded

905 is cooler than 901.

Center contact of atty connector is directly connected to center contact of battery.
Shell of 905 is connected to butt switch then neg of battery.
The black forward switch and electronics switch the negative battery/shell of 905 to the shell of atty.

Measurements made with the "cheap" 3 1/2 digit meter.
Still need to check low voltage cutoff with the 905. If it has it then protected cells are a little unnecessary.
Rocket

JohnnyJames

Seems decent though.

Hey Rocket you interested in a brand new 905 V2 kit for about $34 + shipping as a backup? I think they still have some. PM me.

Rocketman

Got a chance to test the 905 a little more. This is the improved model with the plastic insulation but not the newest one with the blue LED or no butt switch.

You sellers swapping out the batteries that come with the unit for protected ones are probably wasting a little money.

It apears the 905 has an internal low voltage cutoff programmed in and it cuts off a little before the protected cell does anyway. With all the scare-hype about protected cells remember that the cells inside most commercial e-cig batteries are not protected cells but rely on a protection circuit inside the battery case just the same.

Double protection (battery and charger) may cause low charging voltage and may cause early cutoff (battery and 905 protection circuit) as the battery voltage goes down. Plenty safe but a little reduced useful charge available to vape on.

Rocket

Rocketman

Protected Battery Warning:

Mod builders and users, check out the inside of your mod. Is there an insulating sleeve that prevents the battery cell from touching bare metal? Most "Protected cells" have a thin metal strip that goes from the protection circuit board at the negative end under the plastic covering to the positive end. Nick the plastic covering and you can expose both the positive and negative contacts of the cell completely bypassing any protection. Sharp edges inside a pipe-bomb mod or worn, damaged cells can defeat any protection you think you have.

Rocket

firhill

Excellent point Rocket.....and another notch in the belt of the Nicostick design.

Rocketman

Yes, there is an advantage to a plastic box mod. No sharp metal edges.
A tubular metal mod can be made safe (er) if any sharp edges, bare metal surfaces are eliminated. A blow out port needs to be provided also.

Obviously I like the metal ones but you have to apply some "smarts" if you intend to make one. and maybe even some "smarts" if you intend to USE one.

Some points to consider:
The end you would like to "blow out" needs to be weaker than the end you don't want to blow out. The atty end needs to be strong end.
Before she blows, a small "leak port" might bleed off some cell venting.
Insulate to prevent a short circuit.
Keep It Simple Stupid, and you have fewer parts to fail, less shrapnel.
When vaping a stacked battery mod, put the battery that is going to blow at the end away from your face.
Take the atty off when not in use. This applies to a pass-thru, MODS, auto battery 510s, even if you have a combination lock master switch,a warmup switch, a prevape switch and a vape switch. Don't just toss the thing in your book bag, purse, European shoulder bag, get a case, pouch, something, and take the atty off when not in use.
If the battery gets low, stop sucking, it's not vaping any more anyway (well, with single battery mods).
If it's not vaping anymore, stop sucking, the battery is probably low.
If you are going to make mods, vape mods, learn to use the multimeter you just bought. And if you use stacked battery mods, you really need a meter, so go out and bought one already.
Battery balance is critical for safe operation of a Li-ion multi-battery mod.
Battery balance is critical for safe operation of a Li-ion multi-battery mod.
Battery balance is critical for safe operation of a Li-ion multi-battery mod.

oh, and take the atty off when not in use.

Rocket

jenntek

FINALLY... Someone that explained the wattage ohms, ampres voltage etc...

My mod uses 2x 3v LifePo4 batteries rated at 1600 mAh each (in series = 6v ~ 1600mAh).

POP! dang... another atty... now? RN4081's... they seem to have good resistance at like 9.6 friggin watts or something... like that.

I knew the wattage had something to do with all this atty equations!

Its all clear to me now...
(14 attys since November 1st) average atty life for my mod 12 days.
I had 1 last over 2 months... and I've also burned up 3 within 5 mins of each other!

Thank you Rocket! I'll frame this post!

JohnnyJames

With two 3V LiPo's and a Joye 2.1Ω atty you'd be vaping at 5.18V.

Hachiroku

The usuakl resistance of an atomizer is ~2.8 Ohms, so at 6V you're running about 12 watts.

Does the fire department regularly send a truck to your house?

jenntek

I have a fire extinguisher next to my laptop... tethered to the fire hydrant with a 350psi of air pressure ready to pump in the tank...

Rocketman

Using, not losing your watt hours>

Now that most vaping veterans understand the concept of mo-mah be better,
let's discuss watt hours.
Say what?

A watt is what happens when you have one volt pushing little electrons through a
one ohm resistor. One amp of current is flowing giving you a power of one watt.
Do that for an hour and you have used up one watt hour of energy.

Take 6 volts and push 2 amps through 3 ohms and dissipate (mostly in the form of heat) 12 watts.
Do that for an hour and you must of had a really big battery because that's
12 watt hours of energy. A pair of 3 volt 750mah cells only has 4.5 watt hours, and a little of that
will be used to warm up the batteries a little. A two-high stack of 3 volt 600mah cells and that's 3.6 watt hours. OK, enough examples. Everyone should be able to calculate watt hours now. Watts is what heats up your atty, watt hours is what's inside your batteries to generate the heat and for how long. Huh? Sort of the same as mah, only different.

So, how about a regulated 5.0000000 volt MOD that uses a pair of 3.7 volt 14500 900mah Li-ion cells? IF we use the average delivered voltage of 3.7 volts per cell, our battery pack has 7.4 volts times 900mah of potential energy stored or 6.66 watt hours stored waiting for us. Sound good so far? If we put a 3 ohm atty or carto on this mod the 5 volts from the regulator will push a current of 1.66 amps through the atty (8.33 watt) which is a quite respectable wattage. The problem is, the battery is supplying the 1.66 amps from a source voltage of 7.4 volts. The batteries are supplying 12.33 watts so you can suck down 8.33 watts.
32.4% of your watthours are being lost. Of the 6.66 watthours you started with, you get to use only 4.5 watthours. You could use little 3.0 volt cells stacked, but aren't they usually 600mah?
3.6 watthours to start, a little less than 3 watthours to use (6 volts regulated to 5 volt).
OK, so it's now obvious we are losing watthours somewhere. Could the LEDs be sucking our batteries down? If the resistor and LED (red 2 volt LED) are connected across the 5 volts as a power on indicator we would be flowing 7.5 ma through the LED. (edited out incorrect calculations) Less than 0.1 watt. Ain't much.

OK how about wires, connections and switches? Current flowing through any resistance will dissipate some of your watthours as heat. If it's not in the atty, it's LOST. Internal cell resistance, every point to point contact, every path the current takes, some energy will be lost.
How much depends on the design of the mod. If the mod has an ohm of path resistance and using the 1.66 amps in the 7.4 volt example above, 1.66 volts will be lost. We would run into an obvious problem losing 1.66 volts to circuit resistance in the 5 volt mod with a pair of 3 volt cells.
Can a mod really have that much resistance? Hopefully not, unless it is intentional to drop voltage (like using a resistor disk). But remember that these losses will use up some of your watthours.
Don't even think about using a LR atty with a mod that has that much circuit resistance.
Maybe a TEST QUESTION is in order here
7.4 volt stacked battery mod, regulated to 5 volts, with about a half of an ohm of contact and path resistance scattered through the circuit, oh, and one power LED. What percentage of the watthours is actually vaped, and what is lost?

I made up a test jig to measure total MOD resistance of my Trailer Parks. A 68.3mm long copper battery plug, a 4 terminal test lead for 901 connections, and a half decent ohm meter The 4 terminal measurement technique eliminates lead resistance and measures the resistance between the points where the source and sense leads are joined. In this case the 901 atty connector shell and center pin.
The resistance measured is the entire path current takes through the mod, excluding the atty heater.
All contact points, flashlight body, switch, spring, battery to atty connection, the works. Just measuring voltage across the battery won't show all losses from the MOD circuitry. Neither will just measuring switch resistance.
Photo shows the test setup. I'll post the results a little later

Rocky

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Rocketman

Tested every TP in the house. (used an adapter to measure the 510 MODs)
Found one that had higher than average resistance and have set it aside to find the cause of the high resistance. The average I found for 16 (all I have that are fully complete) was 88 milliohms (0.088 ohms). The one high one has a resistance of 121 milliohms. I don't know if that's "bad" but it was the worst. The lowest I found was 67 milliohms. Excluding the "bad" one the average was 86 milliohms. Thought it would be a little lower.

Well, at least I have a "production baseline" to use. 0.1 ohm total resistance sounds good to me. Good because it can be accomplished, not because a tenth of an ohm is "good".
Guess about 97% of my watt hours are going to vaping.

Rocky

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Lazarus

Rocket, a little too hot outside today, or what??

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That OCD is really kicking in today. I think you need to go outside and run through the sprinkler...LOL!!!!

The last post in this thread was in April...

Hachiroku

HP Multimeter? I'm pi$$3d/jealous!